The Everyday Entrepreneur Podcast
#13: How To Create The Community You Wish Existed with Asya Watkins
Episode 13
Episode Summary
In this week’s episode, I'd love for you to meet Asya Watkins. Asya is a highly regarded expert in the project management industry, not only has she built her entire career around project management, she's created a community to support, inspire, and grow women of color in Project Management.
Asya and I get deep into her experiences as a woman of color in the project management industry AND what it's like to have a full-time job while running her own business all at the same time.
In this week’s episode, I'd love for you to meet Asya Watkins. Asya is a highly regarded expert in the project management industry, not only has she built her entire career around project management, she's created a community to support, inspire, and grow women of color in Project Management.
Asya and I get deep into what it's like to be a woman of color in the project management industry AND what it's like to have a full-time job and run a business all at the same time.
Episode Takeaways
Women only make up 30% of people in the project management industry.
As a woman of color, it can feel like you have a lot of weight on your shoulders and people may question you more.
The minority tax – all the extra things you have to think about to consider other people’s perspectives.
People sometimes assume you are less than, so you have to have the confidence to let people know you deserve to be there.
If you experience discrimination - don’t lose your confidence. Take a step back and look at your organization’s culture.
People of color are taught to mute ourselves in corporate America.
Walk in, be professional, know your stuff inside and out and learn how to stand up for yourself.
You will have circumstances where you will not be treated fairly.
If you see someone treating a person of color unfairly make sure you investigate properly, stand your ground and don’t allow it to happen.
Wherever you work, it should be an environment that is serving you.
Trust your gut, if something doesn’t feel right, it probably isn’t.
As a freelancer, you get to decide who you want to work for and if you vibe with your client.
As a freelancer, you can be a part of a company without being in a company.
Figure out what your strengths are and use them to work out what’s next.
Remember...
Whatever you are doing, whatever your goal is, give yourself the grace to recalibrate, start over and regroup when you need to. Allow space for grace.
You Don’t Want to Miss…
04:58 – Asya’s career journey in project management
09:40 – Women in project management
13:50 – Representation in the project management industry
19:48 – Experiencing Discrimination in the workplace
35:00 – Employee to business owner
46:39 – Asya’s membership, Women of Project Management
Find Asya At…
Website – www.womenofpm.com
Instagram – www.instagram.com/womenofpm
Chat With Me and More Free Resources At…
Website - http://hollyknoll.com/
Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/hollyknoll/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/consult.hollyknoll
Email me – holly@hollyknoll.com
Solidify your business idea to immediately pitch to clients with my FREE Business Action Guide
Word-for-Word Episode Transcript:
Holly Knoll:
Hi, I'm Holly Knoll, host of The Everyday Entrepreneur Podcast. If you've always wanted to start a business and don't know where or how to start, you've come to the right place. After leaving an unfulfilling corporate career, I decided it was time to start a business of my own. Today, I'm a business coach and creator of the Consultant Code where I help people start services-based businesses, in 60 days or less. So grab your latte because you're about to be inspired, armed with knowledge and given simple tools to start a business of your own from my interviews with, everyday entrepreneurs.
Holly Knoll:
Hi, friend, We have our 13th episode today, and I am going to believe that this means that this podcast is lucky, lucky, lucky, number 13. And we are so lucky today because I have a fantastic guest, Asya Watkins. She is a project management guru-ess, that's feminine for guru, I don't know, I made that word up anyway. Anyway, she and I found each other on Instagram, of all places, and the second I stumbled across her feed, I knew she was somebody I had to get to know.
Holly Knoll:
Because, a couple of things, she is building a fantastic community of women project managers, something that I think is really lacking in the corporate workplaces. Having built my entire career upon project management, myself, into more leadership roles and finally as a freelancer for the past five years, something that I have noticed that has been lacking throughout all of the companies I've worked with or at, is that community of women project managers that come together to support each other and to help each other, along in their careers and their lives.
Holly Knoll:
So, Asya, is going to tell us a little bit about Women of PM and her mission, what she set out to do and why she does it. But first, let me just introduce you to her. So Asya has been featured in Forbes for International Women's Day, she's a big deal in my mind, she's a leading voice in the project management profession, she is an international speaker serving as the keynote speaker, for the Project Management Institute, also known as the PMI in Beijing, China.
Holly Knoll:
She's also been a speaker at other top-tier organizations and leadership conferences. She's appeared on podcasts like the Project Management Institute Podcast-Projectified, Projectified? Close enough, discussing the importance of diversity and inclusion in the workplace. We also get to more of that in the episode so I'm really excited for you to stick around. Asya talks about how her career has spanned over 20 years in the project management space, she's worked with top tier-brands like Walgreens, CVS, Optum and UnitedHealthcare.
Holly Knoll:
She's also served as a director of membership for the Project Management Institute and one of the creators of the first women's network, for Walgreens corporation. So hey, Asya, is a total champion for women, which I love and again, I'm excited for you to meet her today and before we get started, if you've ever thought about starting your own business or if you are thinking about starting your own business, and would love to have an idea that you could pitch to a client, this week, hop on over to hollyknoll.com/free and grab my FREE Business Action Guide.
Holly Knoll:
This guide will give you six simple steps to get you from idea to solidified idea, that you can begin pitching to your very first client, starting this week. Head over to hollyknoll.com/free, grab your free guide and I will see you in the episode with Asya Watkins. Welcome, Asya, to The Everyday Entrepreneur Podcast, I am so excited to have you here today. I've been looking forward to this conversation for weeks and we finally made it happen.
Asya Watkins:
Yes, thank you for having me, Holly, I'm so excited to be here, thank you for inviting me.
Holly Knoll:
Yes, of course. I stumbled across your Instagram profile, I don't even know how, but you really caught my attention because I saw Women of Project Management. And this is something I don't talk about, probably nearly enough on the podcast, but the reason why you caught my attention is because I, myself, have been a project manager. I've built my entire career in the project management space, within technology teams at big retailers. And so I thought, "Wow, how cool that someone has gone out there and created a community, for women project managers." And so I was really excited and I would love to know about your journey and, obviously, you haven't been doing this for your entire career so where did you start out? And how did you get started?
Asya Watkins:
It's been a very interesting journey. Project managers, obviously, we're everywhere, right? It didn't start out that way though, so initially I thought I was going to be a pharmacist. A little different than... Well, honestly, not that different than project management, surprisingly enough. But I thought I was going to be a pharmacist, went to pharmacy school in New Orleans and got to a doctorates program. And then I got into chemistry, all those medicinal chemistry classes and I was like, "Oh no, I got to get out of here." I'm like, "This is not necessarily for me." And what I later learned of, in hindsight, is that I love the business side but not the clinical side of it. And so I finished out my degree, undergrad, and I went back home eventually because Hurricane Katrina did happened around that time too, in pharmacy school.
Asya Watkins:
It was a really defining moment and so, eventually, moved back to Chicago, which is where I'm from. And I start working for Walgreens so I was working for them before, when I thought I was going to be a pharmacist. And I was doing, naturally, a lot of project management roles, funny enough, district wide, for their stores, making sure they were meeting numbers and marketing. And stuff I was doing, I had no business doing because I wasn't in school for it but I loved it, it was just my natural thing to do. And then I did a little bit of forensics so I was a forensic analyst, but when I moved back to Chicago, I stumbled into project management because I worked for their project management office, on the IT side, for their pharmaceutical side of their business, at the time.
Asya Watkins:
And so I started working in project management, I loved that and I was like, "Okay, all these OCD tendencies, all this organizing, this is where it belongs." And so I really just enjoyed it and so I was the only woman on the team, but I was very blessed because I got to work with some amazing guys. And they really took me under their wing and taught me a lot of things and so, I learned a lot there, had some hurdles but learned a lot there. And then, eventually, got recruited to another company on the pharmaceutical side and then went to a different one. And so I've learned a lot work, worked with a lot of different clients, organizations, a lot of different things on both the IT side and the business side.
Asya Watkins:
Business is definitely more of my love, than the IT side. IT side is good too, there's a framework around it, I know you already know that. So it's been this different journey, not a straight A to B but it's been a good journey and I've learned a lot along the way. Funny enough, I spent the majority of my career on the corporate side, managing pharmacists and then I knew of a different perspective. It also confirmed that I don't like chemistry, all the drugs, the interactions, I'm like, "I'm good." But it was a good... It's been a ride so that's the short, long version of it but it's been a lot, a lot of ups and downs but a lot of lessons learned.
Holly Knoll:
I love it. I love that your career has also taken some twists and turns, you've noticed what you do like, what you don't like, what you thought you might like and it turns out you do like. And I love how you gave yourself some grace and space to say, "Okay, well I've invested my all, I have invested time and energy and money going to pharmacy school but I'm not cut out for this, I'm going to do something different." And I think that just shows so much strength and courage to actually pivot, when you've come so far down the path.
Holly Knoll:
I want to get into a little bit of why you started Women of PM. Oftentimes we start businesses because we see a gap in an industry or in a vertical or whatever it is. And so what was the impetus or what was the moment or the combination of events, that really inspired you to start this program? And tell us a little bit about it.
Asya Watkins:
I'm happy to. It started out as being selfish, to be honest with you. So for me, I've worked in project management unofficially and officially for the last 20 years. And in that time, in the beginning of my career, I found myself even up to a few years ago, still saying... And honestly, still now, asking, I was so naive at the beginning of my career and saying, "Well, where are the women?" Because we're project managers, we ask lot of questions, right? Naturally.
Holly Knoll:
Of course. Definitely.
Asya Watkins:
Which is good.
Holly Knoll:
That's what we need to do.
Asya Watkins:
Yes. So I really faced it to everybody's benefit. But I always asked a lot of questions and so, when it came to looking for mentors or a woman to turn to, and at the time I wasn't married, I didn't have any kids, I didn't even have a dog. And so it was just, I wanted to know, "Well, how does this look a few years down the road when I'm married or when I have kids and how do you navigate that?" And I couldn't find that and then I kept going through my career, I kept converting people over.
Asya Watkins:
I could write to my best friend, I was like, "You should be a project manager," and so I'm like, "This is crazy," and so I said... I did go to meetings, local meetings with project management and it was great but I still felt like, "Where are all my people? I want to talk to more women, I want more women who look like me." There's great conversations, don't get me wrong, with men and there's some really great dynamic conversations but, there are certain things that you just want to have those candid conversations with women and women who look like you. And all those different dynamics in your little tribe and so I literally did look for it, for a good amount of years.
Asya Watkins:
And then my husband got to... But then I got married, had kids, that's where it was like, "Why don't you just create it? You've been talking about it, you can't find it." And so I was hesitant at first because I was saying, "There's no market research out there for it, there's no one really doing exactly what it is, it's just in my head." And so it was just like what, "You know what? I got to just make the leap," and so I was like, "You know what? I'm just going to create the network."
Asya Watkins:
We're the only network created to support women and women of color in the project management industry, in every specialty, because product management is in every industry. What I find and what I've found over the years with women is that, we are having the same conversations, the same hurdles, it's just different a city or a different country.
Holly Knoll:
Different project.
Asya Watkins:
Yeah, different project. But it's the same conversations that we're having and I think a lot of it is just, a lot of us looking for validation of our feelings or experiences or even a heads up of, "Hey, how did you handle this situation?" And so there's a lot of things, we were talking before about being mistaken as the secretary or the note taker. And it's like-
Holly Knoll:
[crosstalk 00:12:28].
Asya Watkins:
... a lot of times we think we're the only ones and then you talk to somebody and so you're like, "Girl, we've gone through that shit."
Holly Knoll:
Can we just have like an hour-long venting session about the 11,000th person that's asked us to schedule meetings?
Asya Watkins:
Yes.
Holly Knoll:
I can totally relate to it, to going to project management events and not really finding your people. I've found the same thing like some of the PMP events that I've gone to or some of the industry type, project management-specific events. I've just looked around and thought like, "These aren't my people and actually these are a lot of the people that I really don't enjoy, so why are they being attracted to these programs and so am I? Where are my people who are real and authentic and maybe not so conventional and not so by the book?"
Holly Knoll:
But one thing that you said that really stood out to me is, you were looking for people that look like you. And I would say, just in complete transparency, that isn't something that I've personally experienced, so I would love for you to tell us more about that and what you've experienced in the project management industry, when it comes to women of color and what's been your experience?
Asya Watkins:
I'm always very transparent, I think it's definitely unique of being a woman. Women only, I was just looking up to say, "Is that stat still right?" That women only make up 30% of project management, of people working in project management. So we're only 30% but then when it comes to women or color, it's much lower and then when it comes to Black women, we're a tiny fraction of it. And so then, when that's the case, you don't see representation anywhere.
Asya Watkins:
And it's a very interesting and unique perspective for Black women or women of color, women too. But when you're walking into a room and you don't see anyone, anyone who looks like you and then on top of that, you're the person of authority and you're the person who's running a multi-million dollar project, you can get questioned just because you're a woman.
Asya Watkins:
Sometimes we find that, I find a lot of women talk and I've had this in my career too. I think I was questioned, I don't know if it was because I was a woman or if I was younger and it was all older men in the room, it could be all of that. But a lot of times, as Black women, at least from my perspective, and a lot of women that I've talked to inside the membership is, it's very unique in the sense of you can feel very lonely. You can feel very lonely and sometimes you can accomplish some amazing things, there's another woman who I did an interview with and she was the first Black woman, a few years ago, the first Black woman who was a director of IT for the city of Chicago. Rolled out an amazing project, made the city of Chicago number two in the world, only second to Korea, of having a smart city in the lighting system.
Asya Watkins:
And she wrote that out, it was on the news, my mom was telling me about it in Chicago. And it was amazing and we talked, just candid conversations inside the membership and she said, "But I feel so lonely when I walk into rooms a lot, because I'm the only woman in there, I'm the only Black woman in there, sometimes I'm the only woman but I'm the only Black woman in there." And sometimes you can feel, in certain cultures, company cultures, that the weight is on your shoulders and you definitely don't want to mess up but it's just all of this... I don't know if you've ever heard people say this but some people call it the minority tax. And it's all these additional things you have to think about of, "What's their perspective and what's their perspective?"
Asya Watkins:
And I think, overall, I've had still a lot of great experiences or I wouldn't be in project management, but I've definitely had circumstances where people have just assumed that I am less than. And I've had to make sure and I've had to basically come out of my shell, to be able to say, "No, I definitely deserve a seat at this table." And to be able to have the confidence because, in project management, where you're always different so everyone's looking at you-
Holly Knoll:
Oh my gosh, you're in the hot seat all the time.
Asya Watkins:
You're in the hot seat.
Holly Knoll:
Yeah.
Asya Watkins:
And you're responsible for every single thing which we know we're not but, overall, we're responsible.
Holly Knoll:
People look to you to say-
Asya Watkins:
Exactly.
Holly Knoll:
Asya-
Asya Watkins:
Especially when they mess up.
Holly Knoll:
Exactly, we're supposed to know everything at all times and be the most updated.
Asya Watkins:
Exactly.
Holly Knoll:
Which we all know that's an unrealistic ask but then pile on top of that, you are coming into a room with probably conscious bias and unconscious bias. And you probably... Let me not make an assumption but ask you, rather, did you feel that you had to put more time and more effort and more crossing your T's and dotting your I's?
Asya Watkins:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Holly Knoll:
Having to go into that meeting, more than maybe a white or a non-minority counterpart would have to do?
Asya Watkins:
Absolutely. And I don't think that's a secret at all. I think that, yes, I'm speaking from my perspective but I've also had the privilege of speaking to hundreds of women, right? Through even just the platform. And it's a lot of the same thing, it's so funny, I got off of a member call a few hours ago and she's a Black woman and she's in the UK, and she was just talking about how there's a ceiling for women and there's a lower ceiling, where she works, for Black women.
Asya Watkins:
And she went to one of the best universities in the UK and so it's this common conversation that I think that, as a Black woman, that we definitely... It's not new to us because there's just things that I think we come in and... Excuse me, we're taught. And I think, not a bad thing, a lot of our elders, our parents teach us to mute ourselves in order to be in corporate America, right? So to make sure you speak a certain way or make sure you wear your hair a certain way. My mom told me, "Don't wear loud colors," that's not why I'm wearing white nails now.
Holly Knoll:
Your lipstick, I just feel like I just woke up, compared to how good your makeup looks.
Asya Watkins:
Thank you. Thank you, it's that, right? Just wanting to... I know, am I correct? I can speak for myself, I want to fit in. That's all I wanted to do, was just fit in with the intention of, "I want them to treat me like anyone else, so I can have the equal opportunity to advance," and okay, 20 years later, "No." Just walk in, be professional, know your stuff inside and out like any good project manager should do but, you do have to learn how to stand up for yourself because you are going to have circumstances where, you're not going to be treated fairly.
Asya Watkins:
I've had incidents like that, they thought they were few and far between but I've been asked, for a huge health care company, I've been asked because the consultant didn't want a Black project manager on the project. And the only reason she found out that I was black is because I accidentally... You know how you change your monitor sometimes and your picture's in the corner?
Holly Knoll:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Asya Watkins:
And I knew it, I was like, "Oh God, I got to get this document," and I was like, "I know I'm going to have to switch this." And just instinctively, it wasn't just because of her, she was a very anxious consultant, I'll put it that way, just from the beginning. She was just very rattled and she was a little annoyed, because I knew my stuff inside and out but she was new to consulting and the client had hired her and, really, the company already provided that, which was me. But it was fun, I was working with her and because that happens all the time.
Asya Watkins:
But I had to change the monitors and she saw my face and she asked my executive... No, she told my executive team, "Take her off, now." And I was on this for about 120 days and this was about seven days, 10 days before we go live. And so you know, if you're on a project for that long, there's nobody who could turn something around, right? Because that's what she tried to say, "Oh no, she's messing with the private... "
Asya Watkins:
And it was a fairly big project and then my executive team went, looked through everything. Project plans, every single meetings, all the notes, and they were like, "No, she's actually doing everything fine." And then she said, "You take her off or I'm going to take this client from your company and I'm taking all of my clients." And so they call me up and they said, "We don't like it but we're a week away from go live. So we're going to switch over and put a different person on here and then, by the way, can you quietly log in and mute yourself, don't announce yourself, and then I am the other project manager. And give them, feed them whatever answers."
Asya Watkins:
And mind you, this was only a few more meetings left because it was like 17 days to go live. And then when we went live, she raved about the other project manager, not to say anything about the project manager, she was an innocent bystander. She raved about that and it's like, "We know that you can't turn a project around in seven days, if it was just such a disarray," it was my project, they just want me to quietly do it. And it just is what it is, at that point, I was so tired of her that I wasn't even wasn't even mad at the executive team, I was like, "Just get me away from her, she's so mean."
Asya Watkins:
Thank God that that's not the norm, I don't think people like that are that blatant with it. They may have their issues and or they may be nervous and just like, "I'm not sure," but usually I'm really good about winning them over because I always know my stuff, right? On the projects, and I take pride in that. But luckily, that's not the norm but the fact that it even happened-
Holly Knoll:
That it even happened.
Asya Watkins:
Yeah, it still scars you because you still know your worth but it always makes you say, "I got to just double check everything and I'll double check everything's in," I never want anyone to try to call me out or catch me if something's not right this way or that way. It's unfortunate but I think that it's not as unique, it's not as much of an outlier as it should be, for Black women in this industry.
Holly Knoll:
I mean, just listening to your story, you physically had to mute yourself?
Asya Watkins:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes.
Holly Knoll:
Physically?
Asya Watkins:
Yeah.
Holly Knoll:
Versus just this metaphorical, "Oh, just be quiet." By the way, there's construction happening in my building, of course, the data-
Asya Watkins:
I can't hear anything.
Holly Knoll:
Okay. Well, I keep hearing this random drill and so if the audience is hearing something and if you're hearing something, that is what's happening in my life today.
Asya Watkins:
It's getting drilled.
Holly Knoll:
It's also snowing outside so let's add that to the equation. But here you are physically having to mute yourself, feeding another project manager information that you had worked 120 days, to build up and to know and to immerse yourself into. That had to feel so defeating and, to your point, your story is probably not all that uncommon, for other Black women project managers or Black women in the workplace. And so, as a bystander, I'm imagining if I were there witnessing this, as me and somebody who really loves you and adores you and enjoys working with you, what would you like to see people, your friends and peers, do in that situation? How could have they helped you or how could they have helped make sure that situation doesn't happen?
Asya Watkins:
I would definitely... So I think they started off with the right intention and it was, "Okay, let's just play neutral," even though they know me, right? And they know... They always would say to me, the executive team, "I don't even know how you do what you do," right? "And we never really have to even ask you for stuff because you've already figured it out, before we even have to come to you for something." But what they did was, be fair, go look at all the documentation and make sure everything is good and make sure that any of her claims are not valid. And when you do confirm, which they did, then stand your ground and say, "No, she's good," and say exactly what they said to me, "Everything checks out, we know you're doing a good job, we've gone through, we've audited everything."
Asya Watkins:
And not everything is perfectly fine, they actually saw email strings that I sent them where I was over the top, trying to calm her nerves. And just being... I always say, kill them with kindness and then you make people feel comfortable when they know, you know what you're doing. And so they did all that but then they still, at the end of the day, said, "Well, basically the client is right and we're just going to switch it off." That was, I think, where they went wrong because they could have said, "She hasn't done anything, she hasn't done anything, everything looks good." They could have even said, "We can even sit in on the rest of the call," it was only a week, right?
Holly Knoll:
"Let's just go live." What I wish would have happened for you is, the leader, whoever made that decision, I wish they would have been more rooted in their beliefs about you and about themselves, to say, "No, she stays." And the consequences are what they are, if the woman's threats were empty or not. But I think, all too often, people cave because they're being asked to wear a mask as well, or to mute themselves in a certain way because... One of the reasons I just felt like corporate America just wasn't for me at all was just, so much of where I had worked was so rooted in making people scared or fear-based. And you story-
Asya Watkins:
It doesn't work.
Holly Knoll:
No.
Asya Watkins:
It doesn't work because we're all human, I think we're all human, we're not robots and things happen and, I don't know, just be human. I think that would avoid a lot of things, if people would just realize like, "How would you feel in that circumstance?" And just show the human side instead of the robot side, because I think a lot of times, even in a pandemic, whether you're a corporate or you're running your own business, the reality is that we are operating in the midst of a pandemic. That is still the reality.
Holly Knoll:
I hadn't noticed, oh, you learn something new every day.
Asya Watkins:
But people are just going around like, "Oh, we understand," and then they just keep going as business as usual and it's like, "Okay." And then we just all operate that way but, I don't know, I think we should always give each other grace but especially in a pandemic.
Holly Knoll:
I agree. Well, a question for you too, I'm just dovetailing off of your story. You're not the only woman who has experienced that and the only Black woman who has experienced this situation. Let's assume there's a woman that's in a almost very similar position, that you were in, listening to this podcast right now. What would you tell her?
Holly Knoll:
And I'm sure these are things you talk about inside your group as well, but what would you tell that woman who's experiencing a similar situation, being heavily discriminated against but who is incredibly capable and is essentially knocking things over the park, but just isn't given the right opportunity or chance?
Asya Watkins:
In other words, what would I tell my younger self?
Holly Knoll:
Yeah. What would you tell your younger self?
Asya Watkins:
Or her, whoever, because it's not just me. I would first say, don't let anyone take your confidence, you are definitely worthy of being in that role, you have the skills to do everything that you need to do, you are smart, you are intelligent, all of those things. Because sometimes, even when someone's blatantly wrong, sometimes we tend to blame ourselves or at least examine, "Well, let me see if I could have possibly done something better."
Asya Watkins:
No, sometimes if people are wrong, they're just wrong, they're on the wrong side of it, you're on the right side of it, even if they're not being... There's no repercussions for them. And so I will say, first, don't lose your confidence, you're definitely worthy. But then, two, I would definitely say that it is always good to take a step back and look at, if it's your organization, the culture, is that a culture that supports you? Because sometimes you can do everything under the sun, you can have every certification, every degree and skip down the hallway and bring donuts every day, whatever the case is. And you can still be denied, be denied for roles, be denied of your intelligence, of your brilliance.
Asya Watkins:
Sometimes that company, maybe they just have some things to change and maybe you can have those open discussions with whoever you report to. But the reality too is, sometimes you have to take a step back and say, "Is the culture of this company okay for me? Does it work for me?" Because just as much, even when we are in an interview, just as much as they're interviewing you, you need to be interviewing them as well and making sure that it's a good fit because, let's be honest, whether you're working on your business, you're working in a corporate or you're working with your clients, you spend a lot of time working. And so if this is not an environment that is serving you, that's mutually beneficial, you may need to consider moving to another environment.
Asya Watkins:
That might be another team in that company, it may be another company, it maybe starting a business but just don't stay there. Because I have had that in my career, where I've stayed somewhere too long and I'm like, "All the signs were here, I should have been gone five years ago." But it's easy, don't get comfortable because sometimes we feel like, "Well, at least I know I am going to crazy over here, it's crazy."
Holly Knoll:
It's the devil you know.
Asya Watkins:
Exactly. Exactly.
Holly Knoll:
But that just doesn't serve anyone. Okay, keep going.
Asya Watkins:
That's it, I mean, that's a lot within that sentence but it's oversimplified, but it's important to take those steps back because it's important to say, "Let me see if this environment is even for me." Because sometimes it doesn't matter what you do, It'll be impossible to grow in certain circumstances. Sometimes it's there and then sometimes it doesn't matter and listen, if you want growth, it may not be there.
Holly Knoll:
I totally agree, I think, having experienced cultures that have been highly toxic. My last company as an employee was a company that, looking back, I never should have taken the job. I'm not a patron of this specific place, I don't agree with their practices and ethics and yet I took the job because I thought it was a great career opportunity. I got to build my PMO from scratch and had to hire a team, they offered me a great salary but day three, day three, I had moved myself from Northern California to Southern California, picked up my life. And I was like, "Oh no, I think I made a bad mistake."
Holly Knoll:
And because I had decided to move so far, I didn't have a network and I wasn't about to just quit a job, I was like, "Well, I should give it some more time." But I will agree, I think the warning signs are always on the wall, our guts tell us so much and that, especially when we know, when we're starting to think something's not right, it probably isn't. And moving into a different company or team or a shameless plug for what I do, I decided I wanted to be a freelancer and I want to teach other people how to liberate themselves from these toxic cultures.
Holly Knoll:
Because, as a freelancer, you get to decide who you want work for and you get to decide like, "Do I vibe with this client? Do I not?" The projects are often shorter terms so you're not stuck there, you're not trying to get promoted, you're not trying... You can be of the company but not in the company and all of the [crosstalk 00:34:19]. And so, just me personally, what I was looking for at that point in my career, because I'd had such a... That last experience as an employee was so terrible, it was all I could stomach, But I was scared to death of making that leap. So how did you... Then I always talk about the black hole, the black hole is going from being an employee to business owner. And all of the mess and the twists and turns that happen, as you're transitioning from one to the next. So how did you navigate over your hole of ambiguity, if you will? How did you get to be in the successes as you are today?
Asya Watkins:
First of all, thank you for saying that.
Holly Knoll:
Yeah, oh my gosh.
Asya Watkins:
For me, I think we sound like we're a lot alike, in a sense that I'm very risk-averse. A lot of us project managers, we need a plan, we need a plan for a plan and so, for me, it's been a process, right? So for me, it's like I'm in the middle because I still work 9:00 to 5:00 and I still have clients, I do. And I still have the business and I've had the business for five years and so, eventually, I'll probably transition to the business. And we could talk about that but, for me, Women of Project Management, it's a whole community and then I'm also practicing.
Asya Watkins:
It still goes hand in hand but for me, I am literally one of those people where if I was a bird, my mom would have to push me out the nest. Like, "Get out of here," because I'm like, "Wait, I need to have a plan." I've been doing this for the last five... Honestly, about six years and doing both. The last about three to four years, it's been ramping up on the business side a lot more and I've had to, strategically, take different roles so I had to make sure that I was finding my balance between the two worlds. Because one thing that I found is that I needed the time, me personally, I needed the time to figure out what I was doing. I started out, it was a totally different business name, it was a smart PMP, thought that was cute, and PMI did it, they didn't like the name at all.
Holly Knoll:
Oh your team?
Asya Watkins:
Yeah.
Holly Knoll:
They were like, "No, we need you to be more creative."
Asya Watkins:
Yeah. And then I thought... Okay, I passed them PMP, I passed the PMP when I was nine months pregnant, right?
Holly Knoll:
Wow.
Asya Watkins:
So I had thought of it, passed it and I was like, "You know what? I'm going to help other people pass the PMP and do the coaching for the certification." And then I set everything up and then I was like, "This isn't my blessing, I don't want to... I'm done with this certification, I don't want to- "
Holly Knoll:
Didn't want to keep reliving that certification over and over.
Asya Watkins:
I was like, "No." So we do have certification coaches on the membership but it's not me, she's better and she passed. But I had to go through all these evolutions and then I was honestly going to shut it down about three years ago, I was going to shut the whole business down because I was like, "I don't want to... What's the point in creating a business but creating another job, it feels like it's not a business, it feels like another job and what's the point of that?"
Asya Watkins:
No matter how crazy corporate America can be, it's still easier. If you have a bad day or a few bad weeks, you're still going to get paid. That's not the case with a business, right? So I had to really have a come-to-Jesus moment and say, "I'm shutting it down and I'm going to rebrand." And I rebranded it Women of Project Management and, "I'm going to create something that I wish I just had all this time." And yes, the certification's in there and I can get somebody else to do it, I don't have to do it, it'll be a disservice to other members at the membership.
Asya Watkins:
But I just built this community and I didn't know, because it was just I was there, no market research, there was nothing else out there like that. And it was just like, "I know these women exist, I know I got to find my tribe," and so I was like, "I'm just going to create it, I'm just going to keep creating," and I learned so many skills in building everything, the website, the membership, just doing everything and finding developers and just doing everything.
Asya Watkins:
But I just kept trying more and trying to do tweak this and tweak that and so, now, we rebranded it and then we expanded the membership this past October 1st. And so now it's everything, all my lessons learned, all-in-one community and it has all these resources. But, really, it was just more... What kept me going is just creating something that I really, really love and I really, really needed myself and it just feeds into me. And then when I started seeing, the cherry on top, mind you, I built it, saw people can join but I didn't know if they would.
Holly Knoll:
They never do, I hope.
Asya Watkins:
I was like, "Please." And so now that I actually see women and they tell me, over the years, of the difference it made and they had mentorship from people, they talked to me, and they all just start helping each other and just share their knowledge with one another, that just makes my heart full.
Asya Watkins:
And so now I am definitely at the point where I'm like, "Okay," after a while, when they both become full-time, you got to make a decision at a point. And I'm definitely at a crossroads again, right? Life is nothing but crossroads but it's more now of, "How do I want to... What is my impact on the world?" And so for me, is definitely in this community, I know I've poured my heart and soul in it but has been this framework of, yes, creating something that I need but to help others.
Asya Watkins:
It's this win-win situation for myself or the women who join and so I think, eventually, I'll probably still transition to the business full-time because I feel like, at this point, if I'm having all these... There's a lot of effort, there's a lot of time and a lot of love we put in our businesses. And if this is something... When it's all said and done, I don't care about anyone talking about my corporate job, that's just me being honest. I have enjoyed my corporate clients but this is what I want to be my legacy, because I feel like this has lasting impact. And so I can pour myself into someone or this community and the framework, and I can see people actually benefit from it so we're project-based but we're results-driven, right?
Holly Knoll:
Right.
Asya Watkins:
When I started seeing that, it does make me full, it makes me so happy. So the answer is, I do both, I'll definitely, eventually, transition over to the business but I think it's okay to have those trouble years. It's not easy though, it's not easy, the 5:00 AM mornings and late nights, I have a husband and I have a six-year-old, a son that just turned six and he has a lot of energy. With COVID I'm homeschooling now so now I'm a teacher on top of all of that, I'll be homeschooling, we're going to have a lesson right after this.
Asya Watkins:
It's like all these things to juggle and for everyone, it works different ways. I've seen people be successful so many different ways, especially, we have a Boss Project Management Track inside the membership and it's for that. Because I was like, "I want to meet more women who are doing both like me, as well as women who transitioned and they were doing it full-time and they were thriving." Because I think it's important for everyone to see and be able to have... It's tangible, and they can reach out to them and say, "Well, how did you do it?" Or watch the on-demand conversations we're having, like we're having now. And then just tell them, "This is how this happened and it wasn't easy," and this and that. So you could see if it works for you but, my journey is still continuing but it's a bumpy one but it's a good one, it's still a good ride.
Holly Knoll:
I love your story, I love how you've talked about your legacy. What really rang true for me was because I'm doing some corporate freelancing, are you freelancing or are you an employee?
Asya Watkins:
No, I'm an employee and because what my goal is, is to... At first, I thought I wanted to freelance and who knows, here's the beautiful thing. In our industry, we have that option because no one is taking these skills away.
Holly Knoll:
No, one of the easiest roles is freelance, for sure.
Asya Watkins:
Yeah. And I've thought about that and it's an option, it's definitely an option. But I would love just for the business to get to a good point, where I just focus on the business. We're doing some things where we're partnering with some companies who want to authentically hire women, women of color. I think we're partnering with them but it has to be these authentic relationships, because I'm really protective over the women inside the membership.
Holly Knoll:
Over your women, for sure.
Asya Watkins:
Yeah. So I feel like if I put my efforts, even in that too, and we partner, not consult, but partner in that way, I think it would be good. Because I have considered it, I'll be honest with you and I've had big consulting companies reach out. But it's still a lot of work and I still... I don't know, I feel like when you get a touch or a taste of something that you're really good at, even when you didn't know it, and you see how everything is evolving, it's like once you try to compare it, at least at certain phases, sometimes we're just laser focused on one. And then I just love the fact that if I decide to change my mind, project management is so flexible that I could say, "All right, I'll pick up a job." I mean, you probably know this.
Holly Knoll:
Totally.
Asya Watkins:
People are in the inbox all the time like, "Okay, we have a project for this, a project for that," and so I love that about this industry that it's so flexible, there's such a need for project management where you can say, "Nope, I'm not going to consult now, I'm going to focus on this, I want this," and then other times you could say... Sometimes you just might get itch, "Hi, I want to pick up a client." And it's good, and it's a good thing and it's good good money too so it's a win-win, I love win-win situations.
Holly Knoll:
I love win-win situations and I love flexibility.
Asya Watkins:
Yes. Flexibility is everything.
Holly Knoll:
And you building this business on the side let's you not be so dependent, on your corporate job and your corporate job allows you not to be so dependent on your business.
Asya Watkins:
Right.
Holly Knoll:
But they both get to play so well together because they're both rooted in the same practice, which is project management. And you're able to do both until it doesn't work and, to your point, if you want it, these skills don't go away and I think that goes for anybody who has built a really strong skillset, in corporate America. Whether it's project management, product management, engineering, software development, copywriting, whatever that is, those skills are so transferable and they don't go away.
Asya Watkins:
Absolutely.
Holly Knoll:
And that it just allows so much flexibility-
Asya Watkins:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Holly Knoll:
... in a business or in a job, working for someone else. Whatever it is, it's really great, I guess, to have to figure out what your strengths are and to figure out how that could potentially translate, as you start thinking about your life, the next one to five years, that's how I work with my clients too, is what could be next? And just being a member of your membership as well, congratulations on your recent launch in October.
Asya Watkins:
Thank you.
Holly Knoll:
I love your branding and it's not just like, "I love your colors and your font," no, I love... Your values come across so clearly, your mission comes across so clearly, your voice, what you stand for and what you're trying to do comes across so clearly that it made me want to get on board immediately. And so I'm excited to spend more time in the community.
Asya Watkins:
Yay.
Holly Knoll:
And who would be your ideal woman, that would sign up for your membership?
Asya Watkins:
This is funny, I went to hot yoga this morning and I was walking out to my car and I was like, "Who are my people?" Because that's what that question made me think of. "Who are my people?" And then my answer to myself was, "Women, my girls, just women, period, all women, definitely women of color." And then I went on to say, "Yogis," I like yogi people.
Holly Knoll:
I like yogi people.
Asya Watkins:
I like people who work at Trader Joe's and shop at Trader Joe's, those are my people, I don't know why, we just bond immediately. But the women who ideally would join the membership, honestly, the way I built it was, I took all the lessons learned in these past few years and every question or every gap that I thought for the old membership like, "Ooh, we can get better on that, we can support them a little better," that's how I built this, so it really is for every woman. I did have a man ask the other day and I was like, "Listen, it's all catered to women, you can do whatever you want but."
Holly Knoll:
I mean, talk about standing out.
Asya Watkins:
Do whatever you want though. But it's really for everyone so it's for someone who's just thinking about project management. When I was in school, I don't remember there being majors, majors in grad school and undergrad for project management. And now there's plenty of these women and they're sending me messages or emailing me before and saying, "Well, do you have a project... Do you have to have the title, project management? Or do you have to have a PMP? I'll wait to get my PMP," and, "No," again, I'm like, "No, no, no, no, that's the first part."
Holly Knoll:
No, no, you don't need it.
Asya Watkins:
It is for all of us, it's for everyone, it's for all of us. But it's for someone who's just thinking about it and they're just curious, whether you're a student or you're going into a second career and you want to pull those skills into project management, but you don't have to have a title of project management, we have people who are directors, they're executives, they're systems analysts, they're everything under the sun, right? But it still falls under that umbrella of project management. So even if you're just thinking about it and you're like, "What do people do in project management? What are all the obstacles?" And I get that a lot, "What do you do besides IT?" I was like, "First of all, I'm in health care."
Holly Knoll:
You do IT, well, that's it.
Asya Watkins:
Because, I mean, the thing is, it's still valid because I've met... There's titles in industries that I still didn't know project managers were in; sustainable fashion, product management and broadcasting and just everything, and it's just so-
Holly Knoll:
For news feeds, can be an arm of project management, it fall under multiple different types of things.
Asya Watkins:
Yeah.
Holly Knoll:
But still managing something from start to finish.
Asya Watkins:
Absolutely, and it's unique-
Holly Knoll:
Even if you don't have the title.
Asya Watkins:
Absolutely. And that's what I try to get people to understand too. Even if you think about it or even if you're just new, just got your project management role or project coordinator role and you're like, "What is this all about?" We have a track for that, everything's included in the membership. But we have it divided out, that's just everything but it's just siloed out a little bit inside the membership so it's not overwhelming to anyone.
Asya Watkins:
You could push a category and then you'll see a video and if you're new, it tells you all the ways that it can help you and benefit you, and then there's courses and resources for that track. Then we have the career project manager who are women like us and we are not new to this, and we've been doing it but there's always something new to learn, a new perspective, a new skill, whatever the case is, and we have women speaking from that vantage point.
Asya Watkins:
And then we have the boss project manager and that's just women with any project management skills, and you either want to work that corporate job and start your business, or you want to figure out how to transition or you just want to have multiple streams of income. We're bringing women, I'm seeking women out so we can have candid discussions like we're having, and we're going to have it on demand and resources for that as well.
Asya Watkins:
And then the last track of certifications and that's anyone, whether it's PMP, scrum master or whatever the case is, we have people first teaching on-demand courses. And then they go ahead and you can reach out to them if you want, you get to learn a little bit about their career journey, I thought that was important for everybody, just so everybody can see most of the time it's not a straight A to B. So it's just all these different resources and we're going to be partnering with companies, we're calling it our partnership with the purpose for job placement.
Asya Watkins:
Some really great things, all of those things, it's for everybody, it really... I designed it with the hopes of answering all the questions before you even had them, and being able to have those resources that you can consume, as a member, just however it works for you. Whenever you have the time on your own, you just... It's like a little Netflix for women in project management, something like that.
Holly Knoll:
Well, and it's giving women, I think, just even the spirit, it's giving women who might feel alone at work or unsupported or like the only one in the room, who looks a certain way or has a certain background. It's giving people a community and a place where they do fit in and they are honored and supported. And so I love... That comes across so clearly that, that is something that you unwaveringly provide. I thank you for being here today, Asya.
Asya Watkins:
Thank you for having me.
Holly Knoll:
And tell us, how can we learn more about Women of PM and about you?
Asya Watkins:
So you can go to womenofpm.com, you can find us on just about any social; Instagram, LinkedIn.
Holly Knoll:
Instagram's great.
Asya Watkins:
I know. Can you tell Instagram's my favorite?
Holly Knoll:
Oh yeah, mine too, it's great.
Asya Watkins:
Yeah, we're Women of PM on Instagram but if you just go to our website, Women of PM, you can find absolutely everything. The videos that explains all the different ways that the community supports you, sign up for membership and you can see all our social media platforms, you can even shoot me an email, so womenofpm.com.
Holly Knoll:
Asya Watkins, everyone. Asya, do you have anything to add that we didn't talk about today, that you want to leave people with or are we good?
Asya Watkins:
I would just say, we said it before, I would definitely just say it again. Whatever you're doing, whatever your goal is in your career, just have some grace, find your tribe, find people that support you, lean on them but give yourself some grace because I think, for me, there's a lot going on, right? There's a lot going on for everyone and we're constantly recalibrating. Give yourself that grace to recalibrate, start over sometimes, regroup, but give yourself some grace.
Holly Knoll:
Yes. Space for grace, everyone, give yourself some grace. And with that, I thank you so much for being here.
Asya Watkins:
Thank you, Holly.
Holly Knoll:
Was that good or what? Asya, thank you so much for being here on The Everyday Entrepreneur Podcast. I really appreciated your transparency and openness and willingness to talk about some really hard-facing issues, that are happening in the workplace today. Also, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom on what it's like to have two things that you're involved with, both a full-time job and a full-blown business. I hope Asya's story helped inspire you, that you too can start a business, that you too can start something on the side in addition to your full-time job.
Holly Knoll:
Find something that you're passionate about, find something that solves a problem, that you see on a day-to-day basis, that matches with strengths that you have, that you can help solve. I think this is one of the easiest ways to find fulfillment when it comes to your career, whether it's full-time, a side hustle or a little bit of balancing both. Asya, again, thank you so much for being here and to you, for listening today on The Everyday Entrepreneur Podcast.
Holly Knoll:
If you haven't done so already, hop on over to hollyknoll.com/free, I've got a FREE guide waiting for you, that will help you solidify your business idea so you can start pitching your business idea, to a client this week, seriously. And if you love this podcast, head on over to iTunes and leave me a review, I would so appreciate your support in the podcast community. Again, thank you so much for being here and I will see you on the next episode of The Everyday Entrepreneur Podcast.
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